I've been running an online Shadowdark campaign for nearly a year and I like it very much. I really enjoyed reading this post and seeing your observations regarding the different environments and styles in which you tested Shadowdark.
I have been looking for a "hero mode" type of RPG to run a particular setting in. I love how quick Shadowdark is, and how easy it is to run, and I have now downloaded your "HeroDark" supplement. I'm a little confused about the action section but I'm willing to try the rest of it to eventually run this setting that I had originally created for 5e (I currently have no interest in running 5e).
Wow you really put ShadowDark through the paces! I like 5th ed (but I’ve never tried the other editions) and I’m very open to new rpg games, OSR, etc. Frankly, with my group, I modified, changed, left out rules ( for 5th edition) that just don’t work for my PCs in order to keep their attention and just have fun. ShadowDark has been on my radar and many many Kudos to Kelsey and team! I love an underdog who succeeds!!!
You mention 5e’s “failures” multiple times. How can you say 5e has failed in any way? It was not intended to recreate Basic or AD&D. It was meant to be new while capturing elements of old editions, never to revert back to them. By every possible TTRPG business metric out there, 5e is a resounding success. In fact, Shadowdark would never existed had it not been for the success of 5e for the TTRPG industry and its rising tide lifting all boats. I’m not saying this to detract from the quality of Shadowdark or its deserved success. More so to point out that the success of either isn’t necessarily at the expense of the other.
Hi Tom! I disagree, of course. I’m not at my computer but if you’d like I can try and explain why I think 5e is a failure. I consider the problems in TTRPG culture to be related to the creation and design of 5e, and not independent of them. I’m of the minority opinion that I consider the belief that 5e is a good game to be an “emperor has new clothes” mass brainworm. An extreme opinion to be sure, but a minority opinion I hold and can try explaining if anyone wishes.
There are food and bad things about 5e, it from the beginning it was made to lock people into a system mastery that would prefigure the designs of the walled garden to come. 5e was a cultural failure, not a business failure. It has stood as a monolithic hegemony and given the keys to the kingdom to a capricious company not interested in the game, or gamers. It created an antagonistic play culture divorced from timeless design principles that has plagued the hobby from its inception. It has divided gamers, and alienated people. It is anti-Folk RPG.
For what it’s worth I ran 5e for 6 years.
The article does point to some of these things, especially the fine anon person I quote in the beginning.
That being said 5e is now in the Creative Commons and I think people are going to have a great time with it as their main game for ages to come, and I’m really glad people get joy from it!
Healthy debate welcomed! I believe you look at the "emperor's new clothes" aspect as well as the notion of a walled garden through 2020+ lenses. Go back to 2013/14 and the launch of 5e. The designers created 5e with the assumption that the game would at best be a small uptick compared to 4e and keep the few of them still designing the game employed. Your stances infer they knew it would be a great success and part of some great plan. There was no walled garden in sight. That notion of a walled garden, and I think it is accurate that is WotC's goal now, was not an inkling of a thought in 2014 and likely never part of a strategy. I don't see the cultural failure either. It is one of the most recognized brands in the world and penetrated mainstream media in ways no previous version of DnD nor any other RPG could even dream. If anything, Hasbro has been scratching their head wondering why one of the top, recognized brands makes so little money. Like any company (not a charity), they want to see growth. That's what companies do. $1.3M is amazing for Kelsey and SD. I guarantee the thought of, "how do I make $2M?" has crossed her mind.
The division of gamers could only come from the rise in popularity of the game itself. In my humble opinion, everyone should be rooting for 5e 2024's success. It will still remain the game that introduces 99.9% of all new TTRPGers to the hobby, and with that, they can discover other games like SD. Practically no one will start their TTRPG journey with SD or any other indy game. The advent of so many more TTRPGs means everyone can find their flavor. Your not liking 5e does not inhibit the fact that I can, and vice versa. It's not a zero sum situation. I've played SD and enjoyed it in certain contexts.
WotC's goal is to attract new players while keeping MOST of their existing. Growth will come with the players who start today, who love digital tools and the version of DnD that they learn as the only way to play DnD. The future players will know nothing of previous editions, the OGL, nor care about any of it. They will want their entertainment in a familiar format and DnD will evolve from there. Those like you and I who watch YouTube videos and debate FB comments are in the very small minority. Most players just want to show up, have fun, and get on with their lives.
FWIW, I've been playing/DMing since 1983. I took a long hiatus and never played 2-3.5 editions. I could be an OSR purist and grumpy about DnD changing, but I also understand they are working with a 5-7 year horizon in mind.
Lastly, if you think WotC/Hasbro is bad, listen to the podcast We Were Wizards. Very interesting. TSR makes Hasbro look like the Boy Scouts. Lol
I appreciate that Tom and yes I do disagree. I think your position is reasonable (and the majority one) and you have much more of a long term perspective than I do, as I only got into TTRPGs consistently around 2015. (I had tried for so long, and do thank the D&D renaissance for being able to finally find people to play with.)
I can't actually argue with the "2020+ lens either" that may be true. I had been running 5e before that, but didn't start encountering the problems I'm describing until I started running for more people around 2019.
From what I know of the D&D 5e design process and the legends of D&D Next, I am personally a fan of that team and what they tried to accomplish. I don't think they were trying to become the D&D brand holder we know in the current year, but they did create an RPG that was well made to keep people away from other RPGs, and it worked. It reminds of lots of sunk cost fallacy products with similar approaches like Legacy Airlines Credit Rewards programs and the iron fist with which Games Workshop controls the wargaming hobby, making wargaming nearly synonmous with Warhammer. It is all well and good to place the burden on the user and say "fly with whoever you want" or "wargame however you want" and yet when stores don't provide you applicable resources, you can't get to your destination, no one talks about your game on Youtube and you can't find people to play with, I feel we can see the effects of one company mostly controlling a thing with no competition. I at least felt that way.
I have indeed heard the legends of TSR. My perhaps naive, but hopeful point of this article is that we are genuinely reaching a point where companies will no longer be able to make money in a brick and mortar way by trying to control brands and rules. The Gary of 1975 that said he wasn't in charge of your game vs. the Gary of 1978 that said if you weren't playing the AD&D way you weren't allowed to use the name "D&D" vs. the Gary of 2007 that said the rules don't count for as much as long as you were having a good time with friends has been like the very arc of this hobby's culture.
I'm optimistic we are reaching a point where players and consumers are learning that they don't need a company to tell them what's cool or what their character can do and having a Gloomstalker Ranger Moon Elf multiclass Druid level 5 is less important than whatever stuff you are making up with your friends at your table. The problems I had with neo-Trad OC / 5e culture are for another post! (One I probably won't write tbh haha)
As to “rising tides lift all boats” that can easily be said by the boat that is doing well. The only boat being risen by the swirling tide of cultural hegemony that has been neo-Trad 5e gaming has been corporate overlords and brand gamers. Folk RPGs languished under 5e.
The only thing that 5e helped, was 5e, and it was designed that way. That is ending.
Now, again, this is a minority opinion. I think I understand your point of view, and I appreciate you sharing it!
It's really helpful to me to note how the OSR design philosophy has unintentionally modified aspects of the earlier systems it's designed to emulate. Just as an organic result of the way we're producing this content.
As a writer it's instinctive to say "put something good in every hex, don't waste a room of the dungeon" but then when you run it at the table using a high-lethality system it can threaten to bog down the players in the wilderness, as you describe here. It's making me think more about the need sometimes to take a foot off the accelerator, to be a little less efficient in game design so the players have space to breathe. More empty hexes so the world doesn't feel overcrowded, that kind of thing.
I've been running an online Shadowdark campaign for nearly a year and I like it very much. I really enjoyed reading this post and seeing your observations regarding the different environments and styles in which you tested Shadowdark.
I have been looking for a "hero mode" type of RPG to run a particular setting in. I love how quick Shadowdark is, and how easy it is to run, and I have now downloaded your "HeroDark" supplement. I'm a little confused about the action section but I'm willing to try the rest of it to eventually run this setting that I had originally created for 5e (I currently have no interest in running 5e).
Thanks.
Wow you really put ShadowDark through the paces! I like 5th ed (but I’ve never tried the other editions) and I’m very open to new rpg games, OSR, etc. Frankly, with my group, I modified, changed, left out rules ( for 5th edition) that just don’t work for my PCs in order to keep their attention and just have fun. ShadowDark has been on my radar and many many Kudos to Kelsey and team! I love an underdog who succeeds!!!
I hope you guys give it a chance! But even if you don’t I hope you all have an amazing time with your 5e game
I’m sure we will! 😊😊😊
You mention 5e’s “failures” multiple times. How can you say 5e has failed in any way? It was not intended to recreate Basic or AD&D. It was meant to be new while capturing elements of old editions, never to revert back to them. By every possible TTRPG business metric out there, 5e is a resounding success. In fact, Shadowdark would never existed had it not been for the success of 5e for the TTRPG industry and its rising tide lifting all boats. I’m not saying this to detract from the quality of Shadowdark or its deserved success. More so to point out that the success of either isn’t necessarily at the expense of the other.
Hi Tom! I disagree, of course. I’m not at my computer but if you’d like I can try and explain why I think 5e is a failure. I consider the problems in TTRPG culture to be related to the creation and design of 5e, and not independent of them. I’m of the minority opinion that I consider the belief that 5e is a good game to be an “emperor has new clothes” mass brainworm. An extreme opinion to be sure, but a minority opinion I hold and can try explaining if anyone wishes.
There are food and bad things about 5e, it from the beginning it was made to lock people into a system mastery that would prefigure the designs of the walled garden to come. 5e was a cultural failure, not a business failure. It has stood as a monolithic hegemony and given the keys to the kingdom to a capricious company not interested in the game, or gamers. It created an antagonistic play culture divorced from timeless design principles that has plagued the hobby from its inception. It has divided gamers, and alienated people. It is anti-Folk RPG.
For what it’s worth I ran 5e for 6 years.
The article does point to some of these things, especially the fine anon person I quote in the beginning.
That being said 5e is now in the Creative Commons and I think people are going to have a great time with it as their main game for ages to come, and I’m really glad people get joy from it!
Healthy debate welcomed! I believe you look at the "emperor's new clothes" aspect as well as the notion of a walled garden through 2020+ lenses. Go back to 2013/14 and the launch of 5e. The designers created 5e with the assumption that the game would at best be a small uptick compared to 4e and keep the few of them still designing the game employed. Your stances infer they knew it would be a great success and part of some great plan. There was no walled garden in sight. That notion of a walled garden, and I think it is accurate that is WotC's goal now, was not an inkling of a thought in 2014 and likely never part of a strategy. I don't see the cultural failure either. It is one of the most recognized brands in the world and penetrated mainstream media in ways no previous version of DnD nor any other RPG could even dream. If anything, Hasbro has been scratching their head wondering why one of the top, recognized brands makes so little money. Like any company (not a charity), they want to see growth. That's what companies do. $1.3M is amazing for Kelsey and SD. I guarantee the thought of, "how do I make $2M?" has crossed her mind.
The division of gamers could only come from the rise in popularity of the game itself. In my humble opinion, everyone should be rooting for 5e 2024's success. It will still remain the game that introduces 99.9% of all new TTRPGers to the hobby, and with that, they can discover other games like SD. Practically no one will start their TTRPG journey with SD or any other indy game. The advent of so many more TTRPGs means everyone can find their flavor. Your not liking 5e does not inhibit the fact that I can, and vice versa. It's not a zero sum situation. I've played SD and enjoyed it in certain contexts.
WotC's goal is to attract new players while keeping MOST of their existing. Growth will come with the players who start today, who love digital tools and the version of DnD that they learn as the only way to play DnD. The future players will know nothing of previous editions, the OGL, nor care about any of it. They will want their entertainment in a familiar format and DnD will evolve from there. Those like you and I who watch YouTube videos and debate FB comments are in the very small minority. Most players just want to show up, have fun, and get on with their lives.
FWIW, I've been playing/DMing since 1983. I took a long hiatus and never played 2-3.5 editions. I could be an OSR purist and grumpy about DnD changing, but I also understand they are working with a 5-7 year horizon in mind.
Lastly, if you think WotC/Hasbro is bad, listen to the podcast We Were Wizards. Very interesting. TSR makes Hasbro look like the Boy Scouts. Lol
Keep up the good writing.
Tom
I appreciate that Tom and yes I do disagree. I think your position is reasonable (and the majority one) and you have much more of a long term perspective than I do, as I only got into TTRPGs consistently around 2015. (I had tried for so long, and do thank the D&D renaissance for being able to finally find people to play with.)
I can't actually argue with the "2020+ lens either" that may be true. I had been running 5e before that, but didn't start encountering the problems I'm describing until I started running for more people around 2019.
From what I know of the D&D 5e design process and the legends of D&D Next, I am personally a fan of that team and what they tried to accomplish. I don't think they were trying to become the D&D brand holder we know in the current year, but they did create an RPG that was well made to keep people away from other RPGs, and it worked. It reminds of lots of sunk cost fallacy products with similar approaches like Legacy Airlines Credit Rewards programs and the iron fist with which Games Workshop controls the wargaming hobby, making wargaming nearly synonmous with Warhammer. It is all well and good to place the burden on the user and say "fly with whoever you want" or "wargame however you want" and yet when stores don't provide you applicable resources, you can't get to your destination, no one talks about your game on Youtube and you can't find people to play with, I feel we can see the effects of one company mostly controlling a thing with no competition. I at least felt that way.
I have indeed heard the legends of TSR. My perhaps naive, but hopeful point of this article is that we are genuinely reaching a point where companies will no longer be able to make money in a brick and mortar way by trying to control brands and rules. The Gary of 1975 that said he wasn't in charge of your game vs. the Gary of 1978 that said if you weren't playing the AD&D way you weren't allowed to use the name "D&D" vs. the Gary of 2007 that said the rules don't count for as much as long as you were having a good time with friends has been like the very arc of this hobby's culture.
I'm optimistic we are reaching a point where players and consumers are learning that they don't need a company to tell them what's cool or what their character can do and having a Gloomstalker Ranger Moon Elf multiclass Druid level 5 is less important than whatever stuff you are making up with your friends at your table. The problems I had with neo-Trad OC / 5e culture are for another post! (One I probably won't write tbh haha)
As to “rising tides lift all boats” that can easily be said by the boat that is doing well. The only boat being risen by the swirling tide of cultural hegemony that has been neo-Trad 5e gaming has been corporate overlords and brand gamers. Folk RPGs languished under 5e.
The only thing that 5e helped, was 5e, and it was designed that way. That is ending.
Now, again, this is a minority opinion. I think I understand your point of view, and I appreciate you sharing it!
It's really helpful to me to note how the OSR design philosophy has unintentionally modified aspects of the earlier systems it's designed to emulate. Just as an organic result of the way we're producing this content.
As a writer it's instinctive to say "put something good in every hex, don't waste a room of the dungeon" but then when you run it at the table using a high-lethality system it can threaten to bog down the players in the wilderness, as you describe here. It's making me think more about the need sometimes to take a foot off the accelerator, to be a little less efficient in game design so the players have space to breathe. More empty hexes so the world doesn't feel overcrowded, that kind of thing.